Editors Note: Late last year Zen Teacher Ruben Habito met with
MKZC members Bob Curry, Jim Danner, Rex Robertson and John
Douglas to discuss the future of MKZC. The meeting was tape
recorded, and the following is an edited version of that
discussion:
Q: So, I think the place to start is with a broad question, such as what is the purpose of a Zen center?
A: It is to provide a place that will enable people to practice their sitting as a community, and in so doing it can also lead to a transformation in their lives towards a deepening not only of their self-understanding, but also of their engagement with their pasts in society, and in this concrete Earth community of ours. So, with that general framework lines can be drawn, namely just to see to it that the place is there and that the opportunities for sitting are there, and more and more people will open themselves to the possibility of a deeper self-understanding, and that deeper engagement in our earthly tasks.
Q: You talk about a personal transformation, and making an impact on the community. Why is that particularly important as it reflects to Zen
A: I would say that there is something that Zen can offer which is very simple, very direct and readily accessible to anyone who is seriously in pursuit of that deeper understanding. And why is that important? Well, you can see from the nature of our present society that there are so many ailments on the individual, social and the psychological level, and I know that the healing of our Earth really begins with the healing of the individual, and does not stop there. Some people may already be engaged in some social tasks or ecological action, and yet realize that there is some more significant dimension that also needs to be covered. One's own peace with oneself, and one's realization of why one is engaging in such action. So I believe Zen has a very concrete way of guiding a person towards that deepening that would ground not only their own self-understanding, but also their awakening to who they are. And it's really the realization of their connectedness with everything that is, with mountains and rivers and every sensing being.
Q: To that end, I think there are people who have a view that Zen is in conflict with their particular sectarian view of God or the cosmos. Could you address that?
A: A very good point. I would like to assure everyone concerned that Zen does not threaten a healthy faith in the ultimate as expressed in the Christian tradition, but there may be some people with very stereotyped images of God, or what belief in God implies, who would believe that Zen is something that would go against that belief. Zen is basically words or concepts that are an invitation to a direct experience, and so the only thing that is required is that willingness to engage in that journey of self discovery, and so whether that self discovery is expressed in terms of Christian faith framework, or so on (is not a hinderance). I would hope that such explicitly religious people (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) would practice Zen in a way that would effect their own faith understanding creatively or positively, so that they can recover the meaning of those basic terms like God, Christ or the Holy Spirit no longer in conceptual terms, but in terms of an experiential encounter with what lies behind those terms.
Q: You've mentioned three areas that I've heard: social, ecological and religious.
A: No, I mentioned personal, social and ecological.
Q: Ok. In the area of social issues, is there something specific there that you see as an area of opportunity?
A: Very good point. What I mean by social is the way we would relate to one another as human beings, and so in that connection what are those obstacles to a healthy and mutually affirming relationship? For example, in Dallas, or the U.S.A, or wider, you have these basic problems of the great gap between rich and poor, the racial conflicts that we have because of structures that are disadvantageous to a part of the population, and so on. Those pains of the human condition are going to be something that each Zen practitioner will begin to be more sensitized to as one deepens in their sitting. Each person therefore will be challenged to relate to such pain and suffering, in this community and beyond.
Q: You used the word community several times. What is a model Zen community? What would you like as a community?
A: I would envision a group of people who somehow, in having had that opportunity to sit together, will somehow feel a bondedness of common orientation to what is important in life. It would be concrete in the way the members of that group relate to one another as well as to the wider community in an affirming way. Those who can come more or less regularly would be a core group, and as that bondedness grows then people would be able to relate to one another in the sense of belonging to a larger group of human beings who share the same values, and share the same orientations, and who turn to one another for nurturing.
Q: Are you saying then that the personal transformation alters the view one has about the way life is, and therefore if more people in the community (or a substantial number) had that experience then their actions would arise out of that different context, and would alter the community or area?
A: Yes, indeed. And if there are other places that are already engaged in the same process, the connection can be found, and so we can see how we are a part of a much larger movement, or you could say a much larger bundling of energy from below, as more human beings are beginning to discover this form of nourishment and thereby will transform society, hopefully from here on. That's what some people have been calling the "new consciousness" and so on, though some may have been a little too idealistic or hazy-eyed about its coming, but I sense precisely that kind of direction as I see how it transforms the individual.
Q: How do we balance what you call Zen "sickness", the zealot who is overwhelmed with Zen-ness, with an orderly expansion of the Zen community. In other words, how do we attract more people who are serious, without going too far in the other direction?
A: That's something that I need to be careful about, or we all need to be careful about. What I do not see is the need for a kind of wildfire spreading of Zen in terms of making it a mass phenomenon that has become the "thing" to do, so we're not just interested in numbers of people. Our main interest is to be there for those people who have in some way begun asking those basic questions in their lives, and to offer some possibilities for them to pursue that questioning. So, at least, we need that degree of awareness and availability whereby people could say, "Ah, there's a Zen center there."
Q:What causes people to begin to ask those questions?
A: Something in their lives. It can be something that need not be preceded by physical cause. It can just come out of the blue forsome persons, or it can be the realization that one is going to die, it can be sickness that makes some people realize their own mortality. In could be disappointment in some project. It could be a gaping emptiness in one's being that one begins to encounter through some course or other. On the other hand, itcould be some sense of joy, realizing that joy is fleeting and so on. So it could come from all kinds of processes. There is a fundamental experience in humankind, I believe. It could be termed the "interrupt" in one's life. One's life is going smoothly up to a certain point, and all of a sudden something happens and interrupts one's life, and one begins to ask, "What's this all about", or "Where can I discover some secure grounding in my life that will enable me to sense the meaning of what my life is about?"
(Part II)
Q: Our Zen community is growing and flourishing. Can you see a time and a place where there would be people who would want to devote themselves to a more full-time Zen practice.
A: Well, certainly I would hope we would be able to provide that possibility. If there are people who feel they need to devote more time to their practice, for example a full-time residency in a permanent facility, I would hope we could at least provide a living community that would be able to welcome and give guidance to those who seek more full-time practice.
Q: Although you haven't said it, are you suggesting it would be good for MKZC to provide a place for some type of monastic life?
A: Maybe not monastic. I would like to maintain or rather place importance on the lay life. So what I would envision more than a monastic life, would be a regular place of practice for lay persons, who while continuing their livelihood and their normal life have greater opportunities for sitting, mornings and evenings and on weekends, and at regular sesshins throughout the year.
Q: Is this what you envision happening here?
A: Yes, that's a realistic vision that can certainly take place here. We don't need any kind of special place where people can come. We simply need to provide a space and a structure for practice that would allow people to continue their ordinary lives, and yet find precisely the type ofpractice that would allow them to exert no less effort than if they were involved in a monastic type full-time practice. So what I mean is a lay practice that offers regular sitting, but also more of an awareness of one's own 24-hour a day practice.
Q: Is that the life you lead right now?
A: I would hope so.
Q: You fully embody Zen practice to me, and you have a professional life and a family....you demonstrate that all those elements can function together.
A: I think I'm the least qualified person to be able to say so, and so I refuse to testify on grounds that it might incriminate me.
Q: In terms of the number of people involved in MKZC now, isn't there almost a dichotomy between maintaining a quality practice based on a small group of really solid people, and expanding to greater and greater numbers?
A: Don't envision a thousand members all of a sudden, but what Iwould hope for would be little groups that would be able to find a bondedness. What I have in mind as a model is the kind of Zen community they've set up in Spain, where they have only one full-time teacher and one main center in Guadalajara, they are able to have full-time sesshins many times a year and a regular practice as I have described. There are about 20 different places throughout the country with from 50-100 people. So there are these communities, and the teacher spends her time visiting each one at different times throughout the year, and seeing the people in sesshins. And now there are senior students who are becoming assistant teachers themselves who will be able to help in the nurturing of those communities. So the hope is that as our community grows there are individuals who will deepen in practice in a way that they would also be part of the guiding and nurturing process, and not just always on the receiving end. So it is a natural and organic growth that I would envision. I would say it takes about 10 years to even begin to consider oneself ready to help others.
Q: In my mind, I'm coming back around to the idea that our culture doesn't encourage people to ask the serious questions about the meaning of life you spoke of earlier. In fact, it's almost the opposite.
A: Maybe there's something to that. So, how can we create an atmosphere so more people will be more easily able to ask those questions rather than be prevented from asking or seeking by a dominant culture which sometimes diffuses those questions into some other form or somehow covers them up or muffles or co-opts them by some direction that could work against it like the "fix-it" solutions that some people would offer, and which eventually mitigates against that really serious taking stock of oneself.
Q: I thought this was the "Golden Age" of Zen?
A: Not yet. We're just beginning to see the curtains open, but yes, maybe you're right. We're just not seeing it yet. If it's the golden age, you would have in every neighborhood a small group that would see themselves naturally being led to the practice and so on. But if you knock on the doors around here, I don't know if you will find many people at that stage. But I sense that people are at least latently open to it, because of the kinds of experiences they are having in their lives; so it's only a matterof providing an opportunity for them to see that it can really make a great difference in their lives, sitting just 10 minutes a day. Let's not even say 30 minutes in the way we encourage people, or 30 minutes twice a day, or whatever; there are some people who are just not meant for that. But even to give themselves 10 minutes a day will begin that kind of transformation.
Q: You're saying that meditation isn't for everyone?
A: The kind of formal meditation that we do is not for everyone. Let's say everyone in some way or other meditates without realizing that's what they are doing; so what we need to do is precisely to cultivate that innate capacity to just meditate, meaning just to reflect, not reflect in the sense of an intellectual reflection, but simply to take a step back and simply celebrate what's being. So, to meditate; again that's a very complicated question, which kinds of meditation, and how would you differentiate it from contemplation, but you can perhaps use it to simply let yourself be rather than having to do, or have to have, or have to know. So how to let those three fundamental drives of human nature: to do more, to have more, and to know more just be pulled back, and let yourself again be in harmony with just being, is what Zen is all about.So the fullness of being is what we're talking about, and again, in a paradoxical way, the fullness of being can only be experienced if one empties oneself of all that one does, all that one has, and even all that one knows, and even that idea of being so the fullness of being is accessible only from emptying one self.
Q: So in a broader sense are you saying that Zen is just onespecific expression of a desire to awaken people to the fullness of life?
A: To share this joy of realizing that wonder of just being from moment to moment. Something good deserves being shared. But not just good in a moral sense, but something that is really true and good, and valuable and beautiful....
Q: And wonderful...
A: Yes, and wonderfull. Literally. And it's right there under our very noses. So, again, there are people looking for a quick fix. Maybe it's in the way they are deluded into thinking that there is such a thing as a quick fix. But how we would like it to start is not so much as a quick fix, but as a permanent fix that can only be realized through changing the directions that you're looking for things. So, well, it means taking stock of what one is, and so beginning from there.
Q: Are there traps and pitfalls that we need to avoid?
A: Oh, yes, so many. Depending on where you are.
Q: Not personally, but in the expression of Zen.
A: Yes. The very words that we use are all the traps and pitfalls. Right now we're sitting and just describing a dream or a vision or a hope or ideal and even that itself can work against the very realization or the relishing of what Zen is all about, but what we hope is to just to enable it to grow as a natural fruit.
Q: Although there might be a vision, what I hear you saying is that we limit ourselves by having preconceived ideas.
A: Yes.
Q: And therein lies one of our greatest afflictions, trying toattain rather than just allowing it to become.
A: Yes, allowing it to become is the word I would like to follow up there. Not trying to create something new, but letting something, or rather being helpful in letting something, come to birth.